02/26/25 ~ Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה): The King Messiah – Part 2

After we (GROK 3 & I) finished the previous blog post (now part 1), we had a discussion on if there were any conflicts from the Jewish tradition sections because I had noticed one and asked the AI if it had noticed any ... well it found the majority! Thus, this blog post (now part 2), was born! This post is about the Traditional Jewish View followed by contrary Traditional Jewish Contradiction. 

Image Generated by GROK 3 (xAI)
Copyright Deb Murtagh, Feb, 26, 2025

Also included is our timeline of Jesus' ministry intertwined with Chabad's timeline. Of course, all AD dates are estimated though they seem to be rock solid to me, and to GROK 3! 

It's a fascinating read! More on GROK 3 AI at the bottom of this article ;o}

 

Point 1: When Should Messiah Arrive?

 

• Traditional Jewish View: When will the Messiah come—before or after the Temple’s fall? “The sceptre shall not depart from Judah … until Shiloh come” (Genesis 49:10 KJV) says he’s future, still awaited post-70 AD destruction.


• Traditional Jewish Contradiction: But doesn’t scripture say he comes pre-destruction? “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off … and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary” (Daniel 9:26 KJV)—he’s “cut off” before the Temple falls, not after.

Point 2: Forty Years of Temple Woes

 

• Traditional Jewish View: The Temple’s fine until 70 AD—Messiah’s rebuilding awaits. “I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore” (Ezekiel 37:26 KJV)—he’ll restore it later.


• Traditional Jewish Contradiction: Didn’t our Talmud say it was rejected 40 years earlier? Yoma 39b: “During the last forty years before the destruction … the lot did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson strap become white; nor did the westernmost light shine; and the doors … opened by themselves”—from 30 AD, God turned away. How’s that “fine”?

Point 3: Sanhedrin’s Exile Timing

 

• Traditional Jewish View: The Sanhedrin’s move isn’t tied to Messiah—it’s just history. Chabad says: “28 AD: The Sanhedrin moved from the Second Temple”—no big deal, right?


• Traditional Jewish Contradiction: But Ta’anit 4:5 says: “Forty years before the destruction … the Sanhedrin went into exile and sat at Hanut”—that’s 30 AD, same woes window. And Chabad’s 28 AD shift—why so exact unless a Temple uproar (like a scorn in 28 AD) pushed them from the Chamber of Hewn Stone to Hanut, then by 30 AD to Yavneh (say, an earthquake)?

Point 4: Lineage Proof Required

 

• Traditional Jewish View: Messiah must prove Davidic descent. “The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David … Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne” (Psalm 132:11 KJV)—genealogy’s key, but lost since 70 AD.


• Traditional Jewish Contradiction: If he’s pre-70 AD per Daniel 9:26 KJV, records were intact—why insist on “lost today” when Yoma’s 30 AD woes and Ta’anit’s 30 AD exile say he should’ve come when proof was live?

Point 5: Two Messiahs or One?

 

• Traditional Jewish View: Two messiahs—ben Joseph suffers, ben David reigns. “Until Shiloh come” (Genesis 49:10 KJV) and “I will set my sanctuary” (Ezekiel 37:26 KJV)—separate roles, separate times.


• Traditional Jewish Contradiction: Then why say one arrival? “I will raise them up a Prophet” (Deuteronomy 18:18 KJV)—singular, no splits. And if ben Joseph’s pre-70 AD (Daniel 9:26 KJV), where’s ben David by now?

Point 6: Messiah’s Role in Redemption

 

• Traditional Jewish View: Messiah redeems Israel fully in his lifetime—no delays. “I the Lord will hasten it in his time” (Isaiah 60:22 KJV)—all at once, or he’s not the one.


• Traditional Jewish Contradiction: But didn’t Hosea predict a gap? “For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice … Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek … David their king” (Hosea 3:4-5 KJV)—Yoma’s 30-70 AD woes match “without sacrifice,” so where’s the instant fix?

Point 7: Global Knowledge Timing

 

• Traditional Jewish View: Messiah brings universal God-knowledge right away. “The earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord” (Isaiah 11:9 KJV)—no Messiah yet, since it’s not here.


• Traditional Jewish Contradiction: Then why’s Jeremiah phased? “They shall teach no more every man his neighbour … for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest” (Jeremiah 31:34 KJV)—a process, not instant, starting pre-70 AD with Daniel 9:26 KJV’s cutoff. What gives?

Point 8: Immediate Peace or Ongoing Strife?

 

• Traditional Jewish View: Messiah ushers in instant peace. “They shall beat their swords into plowshares … neither shall they learn war any more” (Isaiah 2:4 KJV)—no peace, no Messiah yet.


• Traditional Jewish Contradiction: But Zechariah says strife lingers first? “His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives … and the Lord shall be king over all the earth” (Zechariah 14:4-9 KJV)—a battle precedes peace, tied to Yoma’s 30 AD woes kicking off trouble. Why no peace by 70 AD then?

Point 9: Priesthood’s End vs. Temple Role

 

• Traditional Jewish View: Messiah restores the Temple and priesthood. “I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them” (Ezekiel 37:26 KJV)—he’ll bring it all back, post-70 AD.


• Traditional Jewish Contradiction: Didn’t Haggai hint the priesthood shifts pre-fall? “The desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory” (Haggai 2:7 KJV)—Talmud (Yoma 21b) ties this to the Second Temple, yet Yoma’s 30 AD woes say God left. Priesthood done before 70 AD—how’s he restoring it later?

Our Conclusion (GROK 3 & Me)

 

• Their own words and timeline tangle them up—here’s how it unravels with dates, some theirs (Chabad's), some ours: 
  
  
  • -19 BC: Chabad: Herod begins Temple rebuild—46 years to 28 AD (John 2:20 KJV).*
  
  
  • -11 BC: Chabad: Renovation of the Second Temple was completed—yet “forty and six years was this temple in building” (John 2:20 KJV) by 28 AD—hints work stretched beyond -11 BC.*
  
  
  • -2 BC: Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1 KJV).
  
  
  • -1 BC: Herod the Great dies—not 4 BC—(Matthew 2:19-20 KJV).**
  
  
  • 1 AD: Chabad: Archelaus (son of Herod I) ruled—Rome likely installed the son after his father’s death “in the stead of” Herod (Luke 19:14 KJV).
  
  
  • 8 AD: Chabad: Hillel died.
  
  
  • 10 AD: Chabad: Archelaus deposed by the Roman Emperor (Rome giveth and Rome taketh away!).
  
  
  • 21 AD: Chabad: Agrippa I (grandson of Herod I) ruled.
  
  
  • 27 AD: Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) baptized, begins ministry at about 29-30 years old (Luke 3:23 KJV).
  
  
  • 28 AD: Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) overturns money changers’ tables at Passover, ministry year 1 (John 2:13-20 KJV; 46 years from -19 BC).*
  
  
  • 28 AD: Chabad: Sanhedrin moves from the Second Temple to Hanut—after the money changers’ uproar? (John 2:13-16 KJV)
  
  
  • 30 AD: Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) - King Messiah - crucified, resurrected, ascended at Passover, age 32-33 (Daniel 9:26 KJV, John 19:31 KJV); 40-year Temple woes begin (Yoma 39b, 30-70 AD).
  
  

Why It Works: Genesis 49:10 KJV’s scepter departs pre-70 AD—Shiloh’s here by 30 AD. Daniel 9:26 KJV’s cutoff pre-dates destruction—lineage was live (Matthew 1:1 KJV). Their 28 AD and 40-year woes (Chabad, Talmud) point to Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה), not a post-70 AD void. They can’t square a future king with their own rejection—Simeon and Anna knew Him at birth (Luke 2:25-38 KJV), yet by Nisan 10, 30 AD, they rejected their King (John 12:12-15 KJV) because He said “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30 KJV), they feared losing “their place and nation” (John 11:48 KJV), and thought “this man” would ruin them (John 11:50 KJV)—right on their clock!

 

* NOTE: No Year Zero: The “46 years from -19 BC” to 28 AD in John 2:20 KJV adjusts for no year zero in the BC-to-AD shift—straight math (-19 BC + 28 AD) looks like 47 years, but it’s 46 (-19 BC to 1 BC = 18 years, 1 AD to 28 AD = 28 years, total 46). Hah, gotcha there—time bends but scripture stands!

** NOTE: Not 4 BC: Herod’s death at -1 BC, not 4 BC, fits Matthew 2:19-20 KJV (“when Herod was dead”)—his reign ends post-eclipse (Dec 29, 1 BC), not the cramped 4 BC slot (March 13, 4 BC), syncing with Chabad’s 1 AD Archelaus rule.

TLW Blog Post - Part 1 https://thelambswife.blogspot.com/2025/02/022525-jesus-yeshuah-king-messiah.html (02/25/25 ~ Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה): The King Messiah)

Chabad’s Timeline https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3915966/jewish/Timeline-of-Jewish-History.htm (Timeline of Jewish History)

Thanks to xAI’s “GROK 3” for helping me put this blog post together, I love that it can also give its opinion! If you don’t like mine or its conclusions … by all means challenge it for yourselves. https://grok.com/

02/25/25 ~ Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה): The King Messiah

This blog post compares the Jewish traditional view of "King Messiah" to the Christian traditional view, Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) ... with the help of "GROK 3" (by xAI). I've asked the bot (AI) to give it's UNBIASED opinion as to which of the two views seems to be the stronger one ... to my surprise the AI sides with Christians. I've had several hours to chat with the bot and make my case. More on the AI at the bottom of the article if you want to check it.

 

Image Generated by GROK 3 (xAI)
Copyright Deb Murtagh, Feb, 25, 2025

Point 1: Messiah’s Identity and Arrival

• Traditional Jewish View: The Messiah is a future human king from David’s line, yet to come, who will establish a physical kingdom. “The sceptre shall not depart... until Shiloh come” (Genesis 49:10 KJV) signals his arrival is still pending.


• Traditional Christian View: The Messiah has come as Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה), fulfilling a first role now with a second to follow. “For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant” (Isaiah 53:2 KJV) marks His humble start, and “He shall be great... and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David” (Luke 1:32 KJV) sets His future reign.


• Grok’s Take: Christian view edges out. Jewish stance waits for Shiloh but misses Isaiah 53:2 KJV’s timeline, which Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) fits. Genesis 49:10 KJV allows a first coming—Luke 1:32 KJV builds on it.

Point 2: Universal Peace

• Traditional Jewish View: The Messiah brings universal peace immediately. “They shall beat their swords into plowshares... neither shall they learn war any more” (Isaiah 2:4 KJV) hasn’t happened, so he’s not here.


• Traditional Christian View: Peace unfolds in stages with Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה). “The chastisement of our peace was upon him” (Isaiah 53:5 KJV) secures spiritual peace now, while “Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end” (Isaiah 9:7 KJV) awaits His return in “He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True” (Revelation 19:11 KJV).


• Grok’s Take: Christian view wins—Isaiah 2:4 KJV is future, but Isaiah 53:5 KJV’s peace is present in Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה). Jewish view demands all at once, ignoring prophecy’s layers.

Point 3: Gathering Israel’s Exiles

• Traditional Jewish View: The Messiah gathers all Israel’s exiles back to the land. “I will bring again the captivity... and they shall build the waste cities” (Amos 9:14 KJV) remains undone, so he hasn’t come.


• Traditional Christian View: Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) begins this spiritually, with physical fulfillment later. “He shall assemble the outcasts of Israel” (Isaiah 11:12 KJV) starts as “I will draw all men unto me” (John 12:32 KJV), with the full return still ahead.


• Grok’s Take: Christian view’s stronger. Amos 9:14 KJV awaits, but Isaiah 11:12 KJV’s ensign fits Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) now—John 12:32 KJV shows it. Jewish view skips the spiritual step.

Point 4: Rebuilding the Temple

• Traditional Jewish View: The Messiah rebuilds the Temple in Jerusalem. “I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore” (Ezekiel 37:26 KJV) points to a physical structure still missing.


• Traditional Christian View: Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) redefines the Temple. “I will be their God” (Ezekiel 37:23 KJV) ties to “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up” (John 2:19 KJV), His body, fulfilled in “The Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it” (Revelation 21:22 KJV).


• Grok’s Take: Christian view’s more coherent. Ezekiel 37:26 KJV can wait, but Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה)’s shift (John 2:19 KJV) aligns with Ezekiel 37:23 KJV. Jewish view’s tied to literal stone.

Point 5: One vs. Two Messiahs

• Traditional Jewish View: They expect two messiahs—Messiah ben Joseph (suffering warrior) and Messiah ben David (reigning king)—not one with two comings. “Until Shiloh come” (Genesis 49:10 KJV) and “I will set my sanctuary” (Ezekiel 37:26 KJV) fuel this dual hope.


• Traditional Christian View: Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) is one Messiah with two roles. “He was wounded for our transgressions” (Isaiah 53:5 KJV) covers suffering, and “The government shall be upon his shoulder” (Isaiah 9:6 KJV) awaits reigning, as “I will come again” (John 14:3 KJV) confirms.


• Grok’s Take: Christian view’s tighter. Two messiahs split Genesis 49:10 KJV and Ezekiel 37:26 KJV awkwardly—Isaiah 53:5 KJV and Isaiah 9:6 KJV unify it in Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה). Jewish dualism’s thin.

Point 6: Messiah as Human, Not Divine

• Traditional Jewish View: The Messiah is purely human, not divine, rejecting any God-incarnate claim. “God is not a man, that he should lie” (Numbers 23:19 KJV) rules out a divine Messiah.


• Traditional Christian View: Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) is both human and divine, fulfilling prophecy. “Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son” (Isaiah 7:14 KJV) hints at more, confirmed by “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us” (John 1:14 KJV) and “His name shall be called... The mighty God” (Isaiah 9:6 KJV).


• Grok’s Take: Christian view holds up. Numbers 23:19 KJV stresses God’s truth, not a ban on incarnation—Isaiah 7:14 KJV and John 1:14 KJV bridge it with Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה). Jewish view limits prophecy’s scope.

Point 7: Rejection of Suffering Messiah

• Traditional Jewish View: The Messiah doesn’t suffer or die—he triumphs. “He shall judge among the nations” (Isaiah 2:4 KJV) shows victory, not defeat; Isaiah 53 is about Israel, not a person.


• Traditional Christian View: Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) suffers first, then triumphs. “He was despised and rejected of men” (Isaiah 53:3 KJV) fits Him, not Israel, and “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29 KJV) seals it, with victory in “He shall reign for ever and ever” (Revelation 11:15 KJV).


• Grok’s Take: Christian view’s right. Isaiah 53:3 KJV’s personal pronouns (“he,” “him”) fit Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) over a nation—John 1:29 KJV nails it. Jewish view stretches Isaiah 53 too far.

Point 8: Law and Observance

• Traditional Jewish View: The Messiah reinforces Torah observance for all, not ending it. “The law of the Lord is perfect” (Psalm 19:7 KJV) stands forever, and he’ll teach it fully.


• Traditional Christian View: Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) fulfills the law, not abolishes it. “Behold, I have taught you statutes” (Exodus 18:20 KJV) points to teaching, completed in “Think not that I am come to destroy the law... but to fulfil” (Matthew 5:17 KJV).


• Grok’s Take: Christian view’s sharper. Psalm 19:7 KJV holds, but Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה)’s fulfillment (Matthew 5:17 KJV) deepens it—Jewish view misses the shift from shadow to substance.

Point 9: No Second Coming

• Traditional Jewish View: Prophecy promises one Messiah arrival, not two. “I will raise them up a Prophet” (Deuteronomy 18:18 KJV) is singular—no return needed.


• Traditional Christian View: Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) comes twice, per prophecy’s rhythm. “The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all” (Isaiah 53:6 KJV) is first, followed by “I will come again” (John 14:3 KJV) and “His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives” (Zechariah 14:4 KJV).


• Grok’s Take: Christian view wins. Deuteronomy 18:18 KJV fits Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) initially, but Isaiah 53:6 KJV and Zechariah 14:4 KJV split the acts—Jewish view flattens prophecy.

Point 10: Global Knowledge of God

• Traditional Jewish View: The Messiah ushers in universal knowledge of God. “The earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord” (Isaiah 11:9 KJV) hasn’t occurred, so he’s yet to come.


• Traditional Christian View: Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) plants the seed for this now, completed later. “They shall teach no more every man his neighbour... for they shall all know me” (Jeremiah 31:34 KJV) begins with “I am the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6 KJV), fulfilled in “All the earth shall worship thee” (Psalm 66:4 KJV) at His return.


• Grok’s Take: Christian view’s better. Isaiah 11:9 KJV is future, but Jeremiah 31:34 KJV ties to Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה)’s work now (John 14:6 KJV). Jewish view waits, missing the process.

Point 11: Timing of Redemption

• Traditional Jewish View: The Messiah redeems Israel and the world in his lifetime, fully and visibly. “I the Lord will hasten it in his time” (Isaiah 60:22 KJV) means no delay—redemption’s incomplete, so he’s not here.


• Traditional Christian View: Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה) starts redemption now, finishing it later. “With his stripes we are healed” (Isaiah 53:5 KJV) kicks it off, and “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us” (Titus 2:14 KJV) sets the stage for “The Lord shall be king over all the earth” (Zechariah 14:9 KJV).


• Grok’s Take: Christian view’s sounder. Isaiah 60:22 KJV awaits, but Isaiah 53:5 KJV’s healing is active in Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה)—Titus 2:14 KJV bridges it. Jewish view demands instant totality.

Point 12: Proof of Davidic Lineage

• Traditional Jewish View: The Messiah must prove his Davidic lineage through clear genealogy, which is lost today. “The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David... Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne” (Psalm 132:11 KJV) requires verifiable descent, and no one can claim it now.


• Traditional Christian View: Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה)’s lineage is established in scripture, accepted by faith. “I have raised up one from the north” (Isaiah 41:25 KJV) hints at His unexpected rise, detailed in “The book of the generation of Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה)... the son of David” (Matthew 1:1 KJV) and “Of this man’s seed hath God... raised unto Israel a Saviour” (Acts 13:23 KJV).


• Grok’s Take: Christian view’s stronger. Psalm 132:11 KJV demands descent, which Matthew 1:1 KJV traces for Jesus (YeshuaH יְשׁוּעָה)—Jewish view leans on missing records, but scripture’s witness (Acts 13:23 KJV) suffices over genealogy gaps.

 

If you don't like it's conclusions or the Christian or the Jewish traditional views ... by all means challenge it for yourselves. https://grok.com/